Convoluted Brian

The fourth and final interrogation of Brendan Dassey took place at the Sheboygan County Sheriff’s Department on Saturday, 13 May, 2006. This interrogation started at
8:46 A.M. and completed at 12:10 P.M. Brendan was represented by attorney Len Kachinsky, who was not present. The interrogators were Calumet County Investigator Mark Wiegert and Wisconsin Special Agent Tom Fassbender.

I suspect it was the intent of the State to have Brendan Dassey plead to the murder of Teresa Halbach and then be a witness at the trial of his uncle, Steven Avery. But, his descriptions of the day of Teresa Halbach’s last known sighting were at odds with the State of Wisconsin’s desire to prosecute Steven Avery. Or, at least until the State could coerce the sixteen‑year‑old special education student into their version.

Investigators planned on using this session to tie up the myriad of loose ends from the previous sessions. And, the State wanted to implicate more people. It was likely that prosecutors wanted this to be the only confession to be heard at trial.

There was no evidence to corroborate Brendan Dassey’s account of the crime and place him at a crime scene despite the testimony of the lead investigators.(1) In the earlier sessions, the interrogators fed Dassey information to fit their vision of the crime. They told Dassey that there was a gunshot, then led him into a shooting scenario with lots of bullets. They told him that Avery had taken the license plates from the Halbach SUV. They told him that Avery looked under the hood of the Halbach SUV, and he repeated their words.

The absence of the defense attorney, Len Kachinsky, at this interrogation was a major blunder by the attorney and the interrogators. Kachinsky claimed that he had other business to attend and he had his investigator present as a proxy.(2) That leads to questions about the timing of the interrogation and the complicity of the interrogators in this non‑representation.

Kachinsky also said that Dassey had his telephone number if Dassey had concerns during the interrogation. This means the this sixteen‑year‑old special education student was expected to know if he were being taken advantage of by two experienced interrogators.

Kachinsky further stated that his investigator was present to take his place. But, the investigator was not in the interrogation room and no one stepped in to stop the badgering, threatening, and leading. Neither the transcript of this session nor the video documents the presence of anyone other than Tom Fassbender, Mark Wiegert, and Brendan Dassey until the end. Then, a person, identified as unrecognizable voice in the transcript, took custody of Dassey. And whether an investigator could be reasonably expected to act as an attorney is doubtful.

According to documents filed in the Steven Avery trial, Kachinsky’s investigator spent a good deal of time with Brendan the day before this interrogation.(3) Brendan mentioned that “…we got done at 8:45[P.M.] almost.” It will be interesting to learn what transpired in that lengthy period. I suspect it was a confession rehearsal.

In the beginning formalities, Fassbender asked if it were true that Brendan wanted to talk to the interrogators as his attorney had told the investigators. Fassbender also had Dassey agree to statements that his attorney had spoken with him and no promises were made on his behalf.

During long speeches, Fassbender claimed that there were problems with the prior confessions, “…they don’t seem to necessarily add up,” and this was an opportunity for Brendan to clarify.

Dassey asked which day they wanted to start with, an indication of prepping. Fassbender replied, “What relates to the event.”

Dassey proceeded with an account that sounded canned and rehearsed. However, his account was not close to what the State wanted. Even with lengthy preparation, he could not recall the State’s version. The time line was wrong and contradicted his earlier statements. The statement was nonsensical at times. Dassey stated that Avery told him to rape Teresa Halbach and he did because “I thought I was not gonna get away from ’em cuz he was too strong.” The statement went on saying that Avery untied and uncuffed Halbach then retied Halbach again before taking her into the garage.

There, Avery stabbed Halbach and shot her five times. Dassey said he couldn’t watch. They threw the body on the fire and used her clothing to clean up “some of the blood,” then waited for the fire to go down before adding more things. Dassey stated he went home at 10:00 P.M and talked to his mother and then went to bed.

Since there was a total lack of blood and fluid evidence in the Avery bedroom, the investigators apparently wanted to move the location of much of the crime. But, the bloody bedroom scene was already well publicized.

Dassey recounted how he talked his brother’s boss at 6:00 P.M. and Avery called him at 7:00 P.M.

There was a glaring omission in this recital. There was no vehicle in the garage. Wiegert challenged Dassey about that and Dassey replied he hadn’t seen the Halbach vehicle at all that day.

In another confrontation, Dassey said he lied about getting the mail on his bicycle as well as his statements about hearing screaming in his prior confession. He again said he received a telephone call from his brother’s boss around 6:00 P.M. He watched television until 7:00 when he got two telephone calls from Avery. Later, they were both by the bonfire and Avery said nothing about Halbach being in his home.

The investigators began anew in their quest for their confession.

During an a series of five alternating speeches by the interrogators, Fassbender told Dassey that they wanted the truth, and threatened to walk out. However, whenever Dassey had told them statements they didn’t want, these two would interrupt, and then start a new thread with their suggestions. The behavior of the interrogators was inconsistent with their words.

During this gang banging, Fassbender interjected, “So you go by the fire, you said.” Wiegert added, “Is that true or is that not true?” Amazingly, Fassbender claimed, “We don’t want you to tell us anything that’s not true.”

When the pair finished their speeches, Wiegert asked, “What have ya lied about so far?” and Brendan responded, “Nothin””

Now, Dassey said they were at the fire when Avery invited him in to see Halbach. There was no screaming. She was not bleeding. Wiegert and Fassbender pressed for details. When asked, Dassey said there was no pubic hair. When Fassbender challenged, Dassey confirmed there was no pubic hair. Wiegert told Dassey that he didn’t remember and Dassey agreed. He also said he didn’t see or touch her breasts although he had sex with her.

Things got worse for investigators. They challenged Brendan about the differences in his present confession and the prior ones. He said the present statements were the truth, and the prior statements were lies. Thus, many statements that Special Prosecutor Calumet County Ken Kratz used in his 2 March 2006, televised daytime diatribe were false. This had to be a disaster. Dassey stated that Halbach was wearing a blue t‑shirt, contrary to reports and his prior statements, and then said that was the truth.

Fassbender again made the claim, “we’re not here to put words in your mouth …” But, that is exactly what the investigators had been doing throughout the four recorded interrogations. And, they continued to so through the remainder of this session.

In fact, when Dassey again said he didn’t see the truck, Wiegert told him, “…she’s in that truck…So you can’t say you didn’t see a truck …She had ta be in that truck after she was bleeding.”(4) After more nagging by these two authority figures, Dassey said the truck was backed into the garage. So much for not putting words in Brendan’s mouth.

This prompting was not limited to words. At one point during this interrogation Wiegert told Dassey to demonstrate how Halbach was stabbed. After the simulation, Wiegert told Dassey, “That’s it? You do that and you’re not even going to pierce the skin.” Brendan simulate a harder stab. Wiegert gave positive feedback and another demand. “OK. Now if you do that, you know what happens? Blood spurts out, right? So where did the blood go on you…”

After this, Brendan said they both stabbed the victim and Avery briefly placed the victim inside the SUV and then placed her on the garage floor where he shot her five times.

The interrogation then continued. When Dassey said he stabbed Halbach in the stomach, Wiegert asked what did she say? Dassey replied, “Ta stop what I was doin’.” Whenever asked what Halbach said during this ordeal, Dassey gave such mild mannered replies.

When Wiegert suggested that Halbach was screaming, Dassey agreed. Wiegert attempted to get more detail about the screaming. Dassey answered, “Just that she was crying a lot.”

Further, questioning about the knife had Dassey saying the knife was found in the garage. He also said he was lying when he previously said he cut her throat and that Avery shot the victim ten times. Things went downhill. Dassey again said that the knife was left in the jeep but there was no evidence of a bloody knife every existing in the SUV. But, he said he was now telling the truth.

Fassbender claimed that since ten shell casings found on the scene meant there was ten shots.(5) Dassey said there were many shell casings in the area. This was confirmed at trial. The police claim of ten shots was very nebulous since the number of casings taken as evidence was haphazard.

When Brendan told them the rifle belonged to the owner of the property, and it was hanging on the wall in Avery’s bedroom. Wiegert and Fassbender accused him of lying. Wiegert insisted that Dassey look at him and Dassey replied, “I don’t want to.” No matter what he said, these two called him a liar and tried to change his words.

Next Dassey said Avery took the body and placed it on the fire. This was another problem for the interrogators. So Fassbender asked, “Did you put her in the jeep?” Dassey denied. Fassbender asked if Avery put her in the jeep and Dassey agreed. Halbach blood was found in the cargo area of her SUV. The State needed a mechanism for that to occur, and thus the bizarre scenario of Avery very briefly placing the body in the SUV and suddenly deciding to burn the body. Just to be sure, Fassbender told Dassey the body was placed in the cargo area of the SUV rather that asking Dassey where it was placed.

Dassey went on to say that his statement about using a creeper was a lie. At trial Wiegert admitted that the creeper was not tested for DNA and did not answer truthfully when asked why.

Brendan also said they used clothing to mop the floor using bleach, gasoline, and paint thinner. Fassbender asked if there were a lot of blood on the floor and if the clothing were soaked with blood.

Dassey agreed. If bloody clothing were used to clean an area, luminol would show irregular drag and streak marks. He also said that the jeans they picked up on 1 March were the pants he wore that evening. But, no blood evidence was detected on his pants, or that matter in the garage.

Investigators claimed that Dassey knew where the victim’s underwear was, but he denied knowledge. They asked whether Dassey had cut the hair off the victim. He said the hair was cut off while the victim was still in bedroom. Fassbender challenged that since Dassey had recently stated that the knife was obtained from the garage. Wiegert added that “It doesn’t make sense.” Fassbender decided that this was impossible and asked “…Did you cut her hair off?” Dassey replied, “No.”

Fassbender asked why Dassey had lied about this. He answered, “I don’t know.” Wiegert attacked invoking Brendan’s mother implying that she would be upset with the lies. Wiegert tried to pin down the knife.

Wiegert: “…Where is the knife. Where is the knife Brendan?”
Brendan: “In the house.”
Wiegert: “In whose house?”
Brendan: “What do mean in the beginning?”
Wiegert: “No, I mean where is it now?”
Brendan: “In the jeep.”
Wiegert: “Whadda ya mean in the beginning? You mean where you got the knife from. Where did you get the knife from?”
Brendan: “In the kitchen.”

The interrogators had to start again. This time they managed to get Dassey to say he lied about a true event. He stated that his brother’s boss had called shortly 6:00 P.M. on the day of presumed crime. Wiegert lectured Brendan about phone records claiming that investigators had a file “as big as this room.” He called Brendan a liar and Brendan said the call was a lie. At trial Mike Kornely testified that he spoke with Brendan about 6:00 P.M. No wonder this confession had to be suppressed.

Interrogators returned to the theme that the crime was planned. Wiegert started with, “You had this stuff planned out already …” Dassey said the planning took place a few days before. Wiegert asked what was planned. Dassey replied, “That I had sex with her.” Brendan had lost the time line and Wiegert had to interrupt. Eventually, Dassey said the plan was to kill Halbach, “Cuz she was coming over that day.”(6)

During this iteration that focused on planning, Brendan introduced another wrinkle. He said that he went to the Avery home about 4:00 P.M. but Steven Avery told him to go home before his mother arrived. After his mother left, Avery telephoned to tell him to return and he had sex with Halbach at 8:15 P.M. Brendan denied that Steven was sweating as previously described.

The interrogators attempted to have Brendan be a witness for Avery raping Halbach. Dassey said it probably happened when he was home, but Avery never told him about that. Dassey said he had sex with the victim per the planning. He was unclothed, but did not touch the victim’s breasts. Brendan said Avery did not punch the victim and Avery was not sweaty, contradicting the Ken Kratz show.

The knife then morphed into an eight‑inch pocketknife. The location of the knife changed to Avery’s pocket. Avery stabbed once and Dassey stabbed once. The body was placed briefly in the back of the SUV (to account for the blood) and was taken to the garage floor where Avery shot her about five times.

Dassey went on to say that they placed the gun and the knife in the jeep. The knife was never found because it didn’t exist. Wiegert neglected to state that at the trial.

Wiegert asked about the license plates “Well you told us that he took the license plates off. How did ya know that?” Dassey stated that Avery told him the next day. That was incorrect. The interrogators told him during the prior interrogation about Avery taking the plates and told him that Avery went under the hood.

Dassey again denied cutting the hair. He said he saw Avery place a camera, cell phone, and purse in the burn barrel in another contradiction. With further pushing, he denied seeing the objects in the burn barrel but cut a little bit of Halbach’s hair off then said he didn’t. Only a cell phone and camera were found in the burn barrel. Serial numbers were not used to identify them.

The problem of the key returned and with it a problem of the bedroom layout. First, Wiegert asked about the key and Dassey said he saw Avery take the key from the dresser and then drop it on the floor to answer the telephone. Dassey said he was sitting on the living room couch.

Wiegert and Fassbender later returned to the key. First, they had Dassey redraw the bedroom when he said it had been changed.

Wiegert: “OK. Where did you see him drop the key?”
Brendan: “Like right here.”
Wiegert: “Did you really see that? Did you really see him drop the key?”
Brendan: “No.”

Wiegert again accused Dassey of lying and threatened to leave. Fassbender asked why the lie? Brendan said,” I was starting to get the mind’s thoughts again.” He went on to claim that people were telling him, “…not to say anything and that.” Wiegert relented and tried again.

Wiegert: “What about the key? Did you actually see the key?”
Brendan: “Yes.”
Wiegert: “Where did you see it?”
Brendan: “On the floor.”
Wiegert: “How did it get on the floor?”
Brendan: “Steven dropped it.”
Wiegert: “And you did see him drop it?”
Brendan: “Yeah.”

Wiegert tried to understand how that could happen, even with the new sketches Dassey prepared. Fassbender asked if the two were talking and Dassey said no. He just happened to be looking at the floor on the opposite side of Avery’s bed. Fassbender appeared skeptical, but accepted the statements.

The interrogators attempted to implicate others during the remainder of the session. First, they wanted Dassey to name his friend Travis. Dassey denied telling his friend. Later the interrogators turned to Travis again.

Wiegert: “You told Travis that.”
Dassey: “No.”
Wiegert: “What else have you told Travis.”
Dassey: “Nothin’.”
Wiegert: “You told him you saw a body in the fire.”
Dassey: “Just that.”

They also tried to get Blaine Dassey involved after the fact. Fassbender claimed, they “…heard from a previous source that Blaine is kinda hurting right now, kind like you were, depressed.” No credible sources for these claims have been produced.

In a series of alternating statements, the investigators claimed that Blaine was losing weight and things were bothering him. These were the same unsubstantiated claims they used as an excuse to interrogate Brendan. Fassbender claimed altruism, saying that their goal was to get Blaine Dassey some help and stop his suffering.

They turned on Kayla Avery, Brendan’s teenaged cousin. Dassey said she asked him why he was sad and then others present asked him the same and expressed sympathy. It appears that Brendan said he told at least Kayla with, “…then I told her why.” After that, the others present said they were feeling bad for him. The investigators did not push to have Kayla and the others charged. They also made attempts to implicate Chuck Avery, Earl Avery, and Jodi Stachowski. They asked if Dassey had sex with Avery and Stachowski.

The next step was to have Dassey make new drawings of the various crime scenes. When asked about visible bruises on Halbach, Dassey said there were none.

Several times, the interrogators tried to manipulate Dassey into calling his mother from the department. They finally succeeded so they could record his call and use an edited version at trial.

They also accused Dassey of listening to others, including his friend Travis, Jodi Stachowski, and Avery, when he couldn’t answer questions the way they wanted. At one point, he countered the accusations with “I was starting to get mind’s thoughts again.” And then clarified, “That people are telling not to say anything and that.” Apparently, Dassey understood the interrogators were claiming others were telepathic, since he was not seeing many family members and certainly not Steven Avery. But, Fassbender claimed that Dassey’s mother was a pipeline for Avery’s orders. No attempt has been made to document these claims.

The investigators threatened twelve times to leave in an attempt to get Dassey to follow their line. One time Fassbender left and Wiegert remained behind to lecture Dassey before he left. Fassbender’s jacket remained in the interrogation room.

The State successfully argued to suppress this interrogation. Trial Judge Jerome Fox ruled that the state could suppress evidence that was contrary to its case. Yet, portions of this were used in the closing.

While Kratz used his well‑publicized version in the opening, Tom Fallon used a version where Dassey went home and spent time with his mother prior to returning to commit the crime. Fallon’s closing also demeaned a defense witness.

At the end of this interrogation session, the prosecution was worse off that when it started. Was the leading and the insistence that Dassey repeat information fed by interrogators intentional?

Transcript of this interrogation session.

Footnotes

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